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Paul Bruce's avatar

How does “go local” affect collapse? Probably not much, but those doing this will lead a more satisfying life integrating with their local community and protecting nature to a degree. That is there will be pockets of sanity - that may or may not survive the apocalypse

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eatyourvitamins's avatar

I like your honesty. We need more of it. I do not think the moral imperatives are as clear cut as you argue. Actions that precipitate any hastening of societal collapse directly cause the death and suffering of hundreds of millions, if not billions of real, currently living, human beings. Most of that number will be made up by the most vulnerable. Any given person that survives will know one or many of those who do not. It is Thanos-level hubris to believe so absolutely in your own moral framework and situational analysis that you would see it as and moral obligation to directly hasten a horrible outcome that you deem inevitable and inevitably worse if you don't.

I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong as I don't presume to have a better understanding of ethics, or a superior personal moral framework, than you. I also agree with your analysis of the double bind, the almost certainty of collapse within the 40 year timeframe, and the major contributing factors that you point to alongside the almost zero reason to believe anything will change.

But, and it's a big but, killing hundreds of millions of real people in order to hypothetically save the biosphere and humanity from extinction (hypothetical future lives) seems like a difficult step for anyone to take, and a difficult moral position to defend. I think it may be easier to defend if the complete destruction of the biosphere and human extinction were guaranteed on the current path, but it is vastly different to guarantee some kind of significant 'collapse' (which really does seem unavoidable) as it is to guarantee complete devastation and extinction.

The much greater likelihood is that the human species, for whatever reason, is just fundamentally wired to eventually end up in this position as certain social, cultural and genetic dynamics slowly but surely funnel the worst of humans to positions of outweighed power and influence that then build societies that magnify the incentive structure and lock up the dynamic. If this is the case, and i believe that it is, there is really nothing any one person can do about it except to try their best to live their own life with as much grace, love, integrity and joy as they possibly can. In this scenario, like any species that dives too far into overshoot, we obviously collapse/correct at some point. But unlike most species, that entirely lose the ability to survive at all with severely reduced genetic pools and in inhospitable habitats (and thus go extinct), humans will find a way to survive in smaller numbers and slowly regrow, and it all starts again, but this time, material constraints may force a very different path for future human societies as there will simply not be enough available energy to do again what we have done (Was it you that wrote about that? Or the honest sorcerer, someone did but I forget). The biosphere is resilient enough to outlast our collapse and the damage that we do to it up until that collapse. It will just keep slowly adapting, recovering and changing as it always has. Humans will only go fully extinct if conditions around the entire earth become entirely uninhabitable. That is unlikely to happen any time soon unless there is a major asteroid collision or a major nuclear war... which are obviously possibilities, but almost entirely outside of our control. Although, hastening collapse with direct sabotage and sending industrial civilisation into an uncontrolled death spiral would surely significantly raise the risk of nuclear war...

I probably haven't argued this all that articulately, but my point is that collapse will happen because it has to, hastening it for the sake of hypothetical outcomes within an incredibly complex model/system seems rash and wildly unethical, at least to me. Modern industrial society will be forced to start coming to terms with the inevitable sooner rather than later, and when it does, many hands will be forced, and we will see how they play out. My suspicion is that at least, at that point, when all are truly forced to face the truth, and the lies are all burst by brutal reality, there will be a chance for global cooperation, a change to devise some kind of strategy for a more controlled collapse and after-collapse plan. The mantras of progress and human exceptionalism will be shown for what they as all that survive see what they have wrought and those that survive will once again embrace interconnected biocentric worldviews, as much from necessity as from experience and gained wisdom.

This is in no way to argue against activism, calls for systemic revolution and rebuilding, it is simply to say that I do not believe that direct action to hasten collapse is defendable as an ethical obligation. Much love.

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